CHANGING THE FACE OF DISABILITY Hugh Boyle

[00:00:00] Today on the AMPD UP211 Podcast, Hugh Boyle is the right leg below knee amputee and the

[00:00:06] founding partner of the Consumers with Disabilities Research Foundation.

[00:00:11] North America's first consumer research business focused on generating data and insights from

[00:00:18] and for the vast and valuable consumers with disabilities population.

[00:00:24] They are committed to using research to improve consumer life for the disabled community.

[00:00:29] As a top executive in the advertising industry, Hugh brings a very interesting and relevant

[00:00:35] perspective to the entire amputee community.

[00:00:38] As he continues his mission of advocacy, it is our pleasure to welcome Mr. Hugh Boyle.

[00:00:44] Hugh, how are you?

[00:00:47] Good to see you.

[00:00:48] I'm good, Rick.

[00:00:49] How are you?

[00:00:50] I'm fantastic.

[00:00:51] I'm so excited to have you here today.

[00:00:53] I've been reading up on you and there's so much to talk about.

[00:00:57] This is awesome.

[00:00:59] Where are you in the world?

[00:01:01] So our listeners know.

[00:01:02] I'm in Dallas, Texas as you can probably tell by my deep southern accent.

[00:01:07] It's a bit of a contrast happening.

[00:01:11] It is.

[00:01:12] It actually moved from London to Chicago and then from Chicago to Dallas.

[00:01:17] And frankly, I had more of a culture shock moving from Chicago to Dallas than I

[00:01:21] did from London to Chicago.

[00:01:22] Oh, I believe it.

[00:01:23] I believe it.

[00:01:24] So I'm just going to say how y'all doing?

[00:01:26] Very good.

[00:01:27] Yeah, very good.

[00:01:28] Thanks.

[00:01:29] So I want to dive right in.

[00:01:33] I know you have a special anniversary coming up.

[00:01:39] If you can tell the listeners about it.

[00:01:41] I'm going to let you know.

[00:01:42] So next week is my second anniversary of my amputation on the 4th of March or as

[00:01:52] a friend pointed out to me, it's better expressed March 4th to March 4th, which I

[00:02:00] felt was absolutely the best possible date on which to get a leg removed.

[00:02:05] And I swore to myself when he pointed that out that what I would do is March 4th from

[00:02:10] March the 4th.

[00:02:11] So yeah, two years next week.

[00:02:14] Well I know you're in advertising so what a great play on words.

[00:02:17] I'm sure you sort of build sort of those little compartmentalized ideas around words and phrases

[00:02:26] and the way people perceive them.

[00:02:29] Yeah, but it was kind of like I needed it.

[00:02:33] It was really important to me when he pointed it out.

[00:02:35] It really gave me something to focus on because I'd had such a short amount of time getting

[00:02:40] used to the idea that I was losing a leg.

[00:02:43] I was kind of scrabbling around looking for information and motivation and so on.

[00:02:48] And actually the very idea of March 4th became that, which was super useful.

[00:02:54] Yeah, you know, I want to just sort of set aside just for a moment so much of your

[00:03:02] journey, which you have been so generous in providing me and our team to

[00:03:07] understand a little bit better how you came to this place.

[00:03:12] But given that your two year is coming up, how are you doing?

[00:03:18] And I mean in the sense of right now in this moment.

[00:03:24] Yeah, I mean, I'm doing great.

[00:03:26] I again, if you'd have asked me two years ago if I'd be where I am today,

[00:03:31] two years from then I would have said absolutely not because when you're in

[00:03:35] the midst of all of the darkness around that, you never think you're going to get to that place.

[00:03:40] But you know, I admit this unapologetically prior to losing my leg.

[00:03:46] I had never been into a gym.

[00:03:48] I was always pretty skinny and never needed to go lose weight.

[00:03:53] So I just never been in a gym, which just wasn't my thing.

[00:03:56] And then after my amputation, just extensive physio three times a week

[00:04:01] got me into a gym for the first time.

[00:04:03] And I kind of thought, well, actually it's not so bad.

[00:04:05] So after my kind of six months of post amputation physio ended,

[00:04:10] I thought, right, I'm going to continue doing this.

[00:04:12] So I started working with a personal trainer.

[00:04:16] And actually as of today, I have never been fitter, stronger, healthier

[00:04:22] at any point in my life before now, albeit, you know, two thirds of a leg short.

[00:04:28] So, you know, you find these kind of these little moments that these little

[00:04:32] things that become part of your life post an amputation.

[00:04:35] And I'm kind of, you know, you won't find me saying I regret anything

[00:04:40] particularly because there's no point in regretting things that you hadn't done before.

[00:04:45] So I don't regret not going to the gym, but I'm really grateful that I am doing so now.

[00:04:50] Yeah, I have a you and I are similar in a lot of ways, both being right leg amputees.

[00:04:58] We're both very close in age, both coming from, let's say,

[00:05:02] a very professional, sort of executive kind of life, very busy people.

[00:05:09] And I was similar to you.

[00:05:12] I would, you know, I would get on these these let's call them like kind of kicks

[00:05:17] where, you know, I kind of get motivated to do a charity, 5K or something.

[00:05:24] And I would train a bit, but I was never really, I guess, engaging my fitness

[00:05:30] as a lifestyle.

[00:05:32] And it's funny how losing part of yourself can completely change your motivation

[00:05:39] physically. Yeah.

[00:05:41] And suddenly I found myself wanting to bring my best efforts to

[00:05:48] exactly the same.

[00:05:49] Yeah, like moving forward.

[00:05:51] And and I don't know what your experience was in the space of

[00:05:57] someone told me, Hey, if this is going to work for you, if you are going to be

[00:06:03] high functioning and I'm not talking about the Paralympics.

[00:06:06] I mean, just if you want to go back to the life or a version of the life

[00:06:12] that you had, you got to get in shape, man.

[00:06:15] Like, yeah, you really got to do it.

[00:06:18] I mean, to some extent, it's actually more than that.

[00:06:20] And I've heard lots of people on this podcast refer to this.

[00:06:25] And, you know, the first thing I'll say is, do I wish it hadn't happened?

[00:06:30] And I still had both legs.

[00:06:31] Of course I wish it hadn't happened.

[00:06:33] Of course I do.

[00:06:34] But the immense shock, the trauma, the time that you're no longer busy

[00:06:42] when you're I was sick before my amputation and then obviously in

[00:06:45] recovery for a long time after that, I'd never had that amount of time

[00:06:49] in my life before.

[00:06:51] And, you know, suddenly you know, the one thing amputation does is it

[00:06:56] makes you very humble, you know, because you're looking at the place

[00:07:00] where your leg used to be, you don't recognize yourself and you're really

[00:07:03] struggling to imagine how you're going to piece things back together.

[00:07:06] But actually concurrently the time.

[00:07:10] I mean, and for me, it was, you know, it was close to six months

[00:07:13] of being immobile three months before my amputation, two months after it.

[00:07:18] So it was a long length of time and I'd never had that.

[00:07:21] And I found what I was doing was just just very gradually really

[00:07:26] deconstructing who I was and thinking, well, I've got this opportunity

[00:07:31] to tune things up and be better and all of that stuff and be more grateful.

[00:07:37] And I think that particularly when I came through the other side of my

[00:07:40] amputation and I'd had a close shave, the notion of gratitude is

[00:07:44] such an important part of my life now, which is why I say

[00:07:48] I kind of choose not to look over my shoulder and regret too much,

[00:07:51] but feel really grateful for the opportunity that I've got now.

[00:07:54] And I think I said in my note to you, you know, one of the things

[00:07:59] that happened to me post my amputation is that I'm less of an asshole.

[00:08:04] I mean that humorously, but maybe part of me doesn't.

[00:08:11] I don't think I ever appreciated healthcare professionals

[00:08:14] prior to getting sick.

[00:08:16] And I'm not talking about the surgeons and the doctors who earn great money.

[00:08:20] I'm talking about the occupational therapists, the physiotherapists.

[00:08:24] And I will say without question, I would not be here today

[00:08:28] without a couple of those guys who don't earn a ton of money.

[00:08:32] And you see, I saw really for the first time in my life

[00:08:36] the power of the word vocation

[00:08:39] and how much these people genuinely care about you

[00:08:43] and the psychological effects on you of getting well.

[00:08:46] So yeah, you come out of the other side of it.

[00:08:50] I felt really reflective, as you said, really focused on being better

[00:08:59] and being well.

[00:09:00] And I've got four kids through them a little,

[00:09:04] and I've got a crazy dog who all needed me, right?

[00:09:07] They need me to be active.

[00:09:09] And when you go to a gym, part of you is thinking

[00:09:14] I'm compensating for the fact that I'm a leg down.

[00:09:17] But actually you move past that really quickly

[00:09:19] and just think, no, this is a better me.

[00:09:21] And the guy who I see who's a personal trainer,

[00:09:25] of course the first question I asked him was,

[00:09:27] have you ever worked with an amputee before?

[00:09:30] And his answer was no.

[00:09:32] But actually I really liked him.

[00:09:34] I just liked his energy and just like the way he was talking to me.

[00:09:37] And he kind of said, but why don't we figure it?

[00:09:40] You've never trained as a one-legged man before,

[00:09:42] so why don't we just figure it out together?

[00:09:45] And I said, okay, yeah, let's do it.

[00:09:46] And I know he read up a lot.

[00:09:49] And so much of what I do at the gym is compensatory

[00:09:53] for the absence of my leg and just building up my hip flexors

[00:09:58] and that whole kind of upper right area of your leg and hip and so on

[00:10:02] that maybe didn't even know you used before

[00:10:05] but are essential to taking steps forward.

[00:10:07] So yeah, that's been a really good experience.

[00:10:10] Yeah, I mean you're obviously and I appreciate it,

[00:10:14] you are a very, very reflective guy.

[00:10:18] It's very obvious to me that in a very short amount of time,

[00:10:23] because someone will say, oh, two years is a long time.

[00:10:26] It really isn't.

[00:10:27] Not in this type of journey.

[00:10:31] But you've invested in yourself.

[00:10:35] You've invested in that downtime to say,

[00:10:39] how am I going to reconstruct myself now that I've been deconstructed?

[00:10:45] Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:46] But at the same time, it resonates with me because

[00:10:52] I very much went through a similar process.

[00:10:55] And unfortunately for me, my process was much longer.

[00:11:01] I went from needing a kidney transplant to losing a leg

[00:11:08] to needing a heart valve replacement.

[00:11:13] Let's call it the dark forest that we all enter was about four years.

[00:11:20] So going through that, so when I hear you say these things,

[00:11:26] these touch points, the gratitude, the reflection,

[00:11:33] reconstructing yourself.

[00:11:35] For me, there was this very, very deep and long valley

[00:11:40] and going from a similar kind of work life, work schedule,

[00:11:46] everything's coming at you, everything's coming at you.

[00:11:49] And you're just trying to keep up.

[00:11:52] I mean, I think I saw in your notes you flew 98 times or something

[00:11:57] like in the course of a year.

[00:12:00] That's incredible.

[00:12:02] You are on the go.

[00:12:04] No wonder you were so thin because when do you have time to eat?

[00:12:08] I mean, you're just going, going, going.

[00:12:12] I traveled a bit.

[00:12:14] I was part of a family business.

[00:12:16] I was very, very focused on my financial and career goals.

[00:12:28] I was a bulldozer.

[00:12:29] I mean, I just kept going and going.

[00:12:31] I worked nonstop all the time, putting in tremendous amount of hours.

[00:12:36] And then similar to yourself, all of a sudden something reached out and said,

[00:12:43] you're, you're done.

[00:12:45] Like all of this is over.

[00:12:49] Life as you know it is over.

[00:12:53] And the other thing I was reading in your notes that I really,

[00:12:56] really appreciate is that, that whole concept of adaptation.

[00:13:02] Like how do I design?

[00:13:06] How do I design my life around this circumstance?

[00:13:11] How do I traverse what's happened to, and I do want to go back to

[00:13:16] what happened leading up to your amputation.

[00:13:19] But how do I design, adapt?

[00:13:22] How do I rebuild myself around this extraordinary circumstance?

[00:13:28] Right?

[00:13:29] Cam Ayala on his second podcast with you, he, and I made a note of this.

[00:13:36] He said, and I realized I'm in my own project.

[00:13:38] I'm in my own amputee project.

[00:13:41] And it really resonated with me because that's,

[00:13:43] and I had just never verbalized it in that way.

[00:13:46] But the moment I'd come out of surgery and realized that my life was back in my own

[00:13:51] hands really, and my recovery was, that's what I became.

[00:13:55] And actually there were, there were good sides and bad sides to it.

[00:13:58] One bad side was that, you know, in the, in the period just before and just after

[00:14:03] getting my prosthetic, I didn't, I left the house for physio.

[00:14:07] Because I didn't want, and I'm going to say this and it's going to sound like it's for the

[00:14:11] wrong reasons.

[00:14:12] I didn't want people to see me in that condition.

[00:14:15] It wasn't because I was ashamed of it and it wasn't because people aren't kind.

[00:14:19] It was because I knew, I knew, give me a couple of months, I'm going to be okay.

[00:14:26] And I just immersed myself in that project.

[00:14:29] And actually, I know the moment that project started.

[00:14:34] And, you know, like I'm not a crier.

[00:14:37] Right?

[00:14:38] I don't cry easily and was devastated by all of this.

[00:14:42] But there were just only a couple of moments where I cried.

[00:14:45] One of them was the day that I got home.

[00:14:49] So I'd been in various hospitals for weeks, got home, got this dog.

[00:14:54] It's the family dog but he's not really my dog.

[00:14:56] And he's a, he's boisterous, right?

[00:14:59] And he loves me and my wife said as we pulled up, I've put the dog in the

[00:15:03] garage because he's going to go nuts.

[00:15:05] And now I was with my stump for the first time.

[00:15:08] And I was like, yeah, okay.

[00:15:09] So anyway, we went into the house a couple of hours later everyone was going off to bed

[00:15:13] and I just wanted to sit up on the couch and I said, will you let the dog out?

[00:15:17] And I was bracing myself and the dog to come charging out.

[00:15:22] But for some reason he did not.

[00:15:24] He just walked very meekly and calmly up to me and just jumped on the sofa.

[00:15:29] And we had this little moment and I thought to myself, you just need me back.

[00:15:35] And then I realized that the dog was an embodiment of everyone I loved.

[00:15:39] They just needed me back.

[00:15:43] And I wept on the dog for a few minutes because I realized in that moment that

[00:15:49] the people who had been so supportive of me and had gotten me through it

[00:15:54] now needed me to put some real skin in the game and be back.

[00:15:58] Yeah.

[00:15:59] No, that's such a beautiful moment that you're sharing.

[00:16:02] And I've had similar moments but it's amazing the sort of heighten senses that animals can have

[00:16:12] in those situations because here you are sort of let's call it back from the war so to speak.

[00:16:19] And your family is just whatever version of you, your family is just so happy to have you back.

[00:16:28] And I worried so much about, I worried about all of my kids but obviously with the little girls

[00:16:35] there was a lot of explanation to do and the explanation became robot leg.

[00:16:40] Yeah.

[00:16:40] Daddy has a robot leg and if my legs off I'll say to one, oh, can you bring over my robot leg?

[00:16:47] So robot leg became the thing that made everything okay.

[00:16:50] Yeah, I love that.

[00:16:51] I love that.

[00:16:53] I do want to rewind a bit and just cover for the listeners what brought you to this place.

[00:17:03] And it's interesting because you had what sounded to me like a form of fusion in your ankle.

[00:17:16] Yeah, many years ago.

[00:17:17] Yeah and then that particular situation, that treatment served you well but then it came calling

[00:17:27] at some point.

[00:17:28] And you had...

[00:17:29] Yeah, and that first fusion was offered me no warning for what would happen 10 years later

[00:17:35] because actually it was really successful.

[00:17:37] I had kind of chronically weak ankle.

[00:17:40] It's apparently a curse of Celtic DNA apparently.

[00:17:45] But who knows?

[00:17:47] I am and finally my doctor said, look go and see an orthopedic surgeon.

[00:17:53] And the guy said, look I can improve the quality of your...

[00:17:55] Actually I was always going over my ankle.

[00:17:57] He said, I can improve the quality of your life.

[00:17:59] I'm going to put two titanium screws into your foot.

[00:18:03] You'll lose some of the mobility in your foot but you'll be pain free and sprain free

[00:18:08] going forward.

[00:18:09] And he was absolutely right.

[00:18:10] So I had two, three months laid up and then as I got used to the new kind of biomechanics

[00:18:16] of my foot, I was like this is great.

[00:18:18] And not even six months later, my son Cameron and I were halfway up a mountain in Scotland

[00:18:23] and I was like this is great.

[00:18:25] I knew I'd maybe get eight or 10 years about it out of it.

[00:18:28] Then in the...

[00:18:29] In COVID year, I really started to feel my right foot.

[00:18:33] And I started to limp as well and I think basically the bones in my foot had changed

[00:18:37] over the time but two titanium screws aren't...

[00:18:40] There was pro changing.

[00:18:41] And it's not to screw my foot out to the right and it would become really

[00:18:44] uncomfortable to walk.

[00:18:45] But of course it was COVID, really the early stages of COVID.

[00:18:48] So I didn't do anything about it right then.

[00:18:51] And then finally in the August of that year, I went to see...

[00:18:55] Now I felt it was very much my foot and at that time it was my ankle and calcaneus

[00:18:59] and my foot.

[00:19:01] So I went to see a podiatric surgeon who said,

[00:19:05] look we need to take those screws out.

[00:19:07] We need to put a couple of screws in.

[00:19:09] He said there's an area of your tip,

[00:19:10] at the bottom of your tibia, we need to put a plate.

[00:19:12] And I said okay let's do it.

[00:19:14] So I went into hospital and had that procedure.

[00:19:17] The funny thing about that day is I took an uber over to the hospital

[00:19:21] and the guy dropped me at the wrong door.

[00:19:24] And I was first up, it was just 7am.

[00:19:27] So to get to the appointment on time, I actually ran around the block.

[00:19:31] Ran.

[00:19:31] So I'm going in for ankle surgery.

[00:19:33] But just something that you want to do.

[00:19:35] Something that you want to do on the morning of your ankle surgery.

[00:19:38] I was still mobile.

[00:19:40] I was still able to run around the block if no it was uncomfortable.

[00:19:43] What I didn't know when I walked through the door was that would be the very last time I would walk

[00:19:49] unaided on my two birth legs ever again.

[00:19:53] Had no idea.

[00:19:55] When in had the surgery, it should have been an hour and a half, two hours.

[00:19:58] When in in the morning.

[00:20:00] When I woke up I just felt by looking out the window and the light in the sky.

[00:20:03] It was much later in the day and I asked a nurse and she said it was a quarter after four.

[00:20:08] So that was insane.

[00:20:10] That meant I was in surgery for seven hours.

[00:20:13] Spoke to the doctor.

[00:20:13] He said, look, well, you know, in the end it went well, but we had to put a lot more metal in them.

[00:20:17] We thought the screws that had been in your foot for 10 years were headless screws.

[00:20:23] So I couldn't remove them.

[00:20:24] We had to excavate them out effectively.

[00:20:27] And but then I was like, but you saw CT scans of that.

[00:20:30] How didn't you know?

[00:20:33] I could tell he wasn't comfortable with how it had gone.

[00:20:36] Went home a few days later.

[00:20:39] I see the first X-ray of my foot and I send it to you.

[00:20:42] I mean, it's like a junkyard of iron,

[00:20:46] dozens of screws, plates.

[00:20:49] I mean, I couldn't believe my eyes.

[00:20:53] But I still very much trusted that it would be okay.

[00:20:56] And so did what I had to do, laid myself up.

[00:21:00] And then in reality, well, firstly, my leg, my foot just didn't get better.

[00:21:05] It got worse and worse and worse by the...

[00:21:09] I don't know, November, December, my foot and lower leg looked like two eggplants

[00:21:14] put together on a skewer.

[00:21:16] It was so purple, a huge terrible pain.

[00:21:19] My doctor, my surgeon had kept me on antibiotics for the best part of three months.

[00:21:24] So he knew something was up.

[00:21:26] Sure.

[00:21:26] But I just kept playing for time and to see whether it'd work itself out.

[00:21:30] And then two things happened.

[00:21:32] The first was at the beginning of December, my overarching health fell off a cliff.

[00:21:37] And I never felt so sick in my entire life.

[00:21:40] Couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't keep much down.

[00:21:44] I went the color of a piece of white paper.

[00:21:48] And then at night, I started to get these shooting pains that would make me yell out,

[00:21:52] shooting up my tibia.

[00:21:54] Now that was inexplicable to me because all of my procedure was in my ankle.

[00:21:59] And then I started losing tons of weight because I wasn't eating and so on.

[00:22:04] That was the point at which my wife, who had been saying this beforehand,

[00:22:07] we need a second opinion.

[00:22:09] This is wrong.

[00:22:10] And my lower leg looked really quite hideous.

[00:22:15] Was there any moment during that process?

[00:22:19] Let's call it that sort of erosion or what anyone would perceive as okay,

[00:22:29] like this isn't healing.

[00:22:30] Like this is getting worse.

[00:22:31] Was there ever a moment in that where you thought, I'm going to lose my leg?

[00:22:39] No.

[00:22:39] I knew I'd read a lot about bone infections.

[00:22:43] Infections as deep as your bone marrow and all of that sort of stuff.

[00:22:47] I'd read about osteomyelitis, which ultimately was what I had.

[00:22:51] But I didn't think it was going to result in losing my leg.

[00:22:55] You know, I finally agreed to change a doctor because of my overarching health,

[00:23:02] not my leg at all.

[00:23:05] I felt like I had a serious disease.

[00:23:07] I've never felt a healthy person.

[00:23:10] I've never felt utter malaise like it.

[00:23:13] So then Christmas came and went and then my wife got me into an extraordinary orthopedic

[00:23:19] specialist at University of Texas Southwestern.

[00:23:23] He was the ex-military and he was the army major for orthopedics in operations Desert Storm

[00:23:32] and Desert Shield.

[00:23:33] Now that told me something really important.

[00:23:36] He's seen a lot of screwed up lower limbs.

[00:23:40] And it was just to answer your question, it was in that first consultation with him

[00:23:45] before he'd seen an x-ray, before he'd seen a CT scan by just looking at my foot

[00:23:50] that he warned us that I may lose my lower leg.

[00:23:57] My wife and I just looked at each other and was like, what?

[00:24:01] And he said, but we've got to do a few things before we get to that point.

[00:24:04] He said, my belief is that you've got severe osteomyelitis probably from your shin down.

[00:24:12] But we're going to get you in for nuclear medicine bone scans,

[00:24:16] which our understanding was there was a long wait list for.

[00:24:19] He got us in I think the next day or the day after that.

[00:24:23] So you go through this two-day process of them drawing your blood, putting radioactive isotopes

[00:24:27] into that that draw of blood and then putting the blood back into you.

[00:24:31] And I could see on the preview screen what you're looking for is your white blood cells

[00:24:36] going to an area of infection.

[00:24:38] And it was so evident on the screen what was going on and quite right from the shin down.

[00:24:44] He then said, look we've got to get that metal work out.

[00:24:47] That was the point where my wife and I started thinking,

[00:24:51] there's something else going on here.

[00:24:53] There's suddenly been this step up in urgency,

[00:24:56] really dramatic step up in urgency.

[00:24:58] So maybe two weeks later, 10 days later, I ran for surgery, took all the metal work out.

[00:25:04] And then he debrided all of the infected bone leaving my foot basically.

[00:25:10] Well, in fact what he did was he packed it with antibiotic beads and orthopedic cement.

[00:25:17] So actually my foot felt great when I came out of that because it was just a block of cement.

[00:25:21] But the world's changed on its axis when the biopsy results came back from the removal of my bone.

[00:25:29] Because it showed, I said what do we not want to see in those results?

[00:25:33] And he said without question, Staphylococcus.

[00:25:37] He said, Staphylococcus kills bone and it kills bone slowly.

[00:25:41] And if you have a staph infection in your bone, we deem that bone to be dead.

[00:25:47] So it was pretty serious stuff.

[00:25:50] My phone vibrated one morning a couple of days later and it was my charts.

[00:25:55] And I saw Staphylococcus not once but three times.

[00:25:59] High grade staph, staph, staph in my tibia and in two places in my ankle and my foot.

[00:26:06] And that was the moment I knew what was going to happen.

[00:26:09] We ran into see him I think that day or the next day, which was a Friday.

[00:26:13] He said this is what you need to get done.

[00:26:16] I need your consent to do it.

[00:26:17] It's the weekend.

[00:26:20] Go home and you might want to say yes right away but don't just go home.

[00:26:23] Have the weekend.

[00:26:24] Get used to the idea.

[00:26:26] I by the Sunday morning I'd emailed him and said right let's do it.

[00:26:31] And then you imagine you're going to wait a little while for your appointment

[00:26:36] and then wait a little while for that date to come around.

[00:26:39] I got my appointment within a couple of days.

[00:26:43] And the surgery, not even a couple of weeks after that.

[00:26:48] And then we understood that I was on Red Alert, sepsis watch.

[00:26:53] It's like just the highest percentile risk for sepsis.

[00:27:01] And if I know after the fact that if any one of those infections

[00:27:04] had left my bone and entered my bloodstream, I could have been a goner in 45 minutes or

[00:27:09] serious organ failure.

[00:27:11] So I realized that actually what had been going on was the conclusion that I needed

[00:27:16] my leg amputated to save my life.

[00:27:19] I mean it was as simple as that.

[00:27:21] The only other option was 12 to 20 weeks of IV antibiotics

[00:27:25] into a stem and adjacent to your heart which has 50 chance of working.

[00:27:31] So that was it.

[00:27:34] So it was booked for March the 4th and then you have that, I wish you would have had that

[00:27:39] however long it was, maybe 10 days of the wilderness days

[00:27:42] when you know you're going to lose your leg.

[00:27:44] You have to cram as much information as you can.

[00:27:48] And frankly just get used to the damn idea.

[00:27:53] You've got no other choice.

[00:27:54] Well I think we all seek out comforts and reassurances.

[00:27:59] You obviously have a great support system.

[00:28:02] So that's something that you sort of lean into in these situations.

[00:28:08] My support in that time came from you guys and I say you guys to every amputee watching this podcast.

[00:28:15] I am not the sort of person that joins, I'm kind of reluctant social media user.

[00:28:20] I don't join Facebook groups and my wife had, from the moment we started talking

[00:28:24] about amputation, joined a Facebook group.

[00:28:26] I found this one in Dallas and the Southwest and so on.

[00:28:29] And I was like no, no, no.

[00:28:31] And then one night actually just to get her off my case because I was having to think

[00:28:36] about this thing that was going to happen.

[00:28:38] I joined one and it was one where you have to answer a bunch of questions.

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:43] But a little profile about this.

[00:28:44] I'm writing my profile.

[00:28:45] I don't want to do this.

[00:28:47] And then hit submit.

[00:28:49] And what happened to me in that next hour was one of the life changing moments for me in all of this.

[00:28:55] Or it barely felt like my finger had just literally just lifted from the submit button.

[00:29:02] My inbox ping, ping, ping, ping, ping.

[00:29:05] And it was primarily guise my age which was kind of important in that moment.

[00:29:11] And all they were saying was you've got this brother.

[00:29:14] Love you man.

[00:29:15] Thinking about you.

[00:29:17] It was overwhelming.

[00:29:19] And that was the second, that was actually the first time I cried in this whole thing

[00:29:23] because of the support and love of strangers who had been through this.

[00:29:28] And they gave me something that nothing I had read in like medical literature could have given me.

[00:29:35] And it was hope.

[00:29:36] And they gave me hope primarily because they were funny.

[00:29:40] And they were, you know, I know you often say you're all in for one.

[00:29:43] They're good jokes, right?

[00:29:45] But they immediately went to that place, right?

[00:29:47] To the humorous place.

[00:29:48] But it was, I've never experienced anything like it.

[00:29:52] Yeah, it's an incredible community.

[00:29:54] I agree.

[00:29:55] And I, you know, obviously I'm part of it.

[00:29:58] I engage it.

[00:30:00] I have the benefit of many people reaching out to me and wanting to engage and have conversation.

[00:30:09] So much of my own forward movement has so much more to do with what you're describing.

[00:30:16] It's that energy that we draw.

[00:30:19] And we sort of fuel ourselves with all these people that are all in the same similar situations.

[00:30:26] You know, so I watched a video diary that had been made seven years prior actually by a British guy

[00:30:33] just coincidentally who had decided so courageously to video himself through the whole process.

[00:30:41] Videoed himself an hour before he went into anesthesia.

[00:30:46] Videoed himself two hours after he came around.

[00:30:48] It was a courageous thing to do, but it was the most important data that I could have received because

[00:30:57] I knew I was seeing the very worst of it.

[00:31:00] And the guy was saying how bad it was.

[00:31:02] There was a day he missed completely, day two after his amputation, which was my really bad day.

[00:31:07] He couldn't make a video.

[00:31:08] He made one on day three.

[00:31:10] I would go so far to say psychologically I couldn't have coped with it as well.

[00:31:17] Were it not for that guy?

[00:31:19] And you did a video diary as well.

[00:31:21] Yeah, so I then I thought, well, I want to pay this.

[00:31:25] I want to pay it forward and please God in six or seven years someone

[00:31:32] wherever in the world will find these videos and I can give them something positive

[00:31:37] to take from it.

[00:31:38] But in order to do that, you have to be abundantly honest.

[00:31:42] I did a video in the car at 4am driving down to the hospital and I was terrified.

[00:31:47] But I think it's okay.

[00:31:48] You've got to say I am scared because I knew very well that days, weeks, months later

[00:31:55] I'd be posting videos of me playing with the dog and the kids.

[00:31:58] Right?

[00:31:58] Yeah.

[00:31:59] So it's okay as long as the story's got the happy ending, you've got to be brave enough to say that.

[00:32:04] The funny thing about that video diary is that I decided that I would make a video

[00:32:10] two or three hours after I came around from my surgery and of course I am as high as a kite.

[00:32:15] Right?

[00:32:16] I've got like IV paincolors coming at me from all angles.

[00:32:20] That video, the video is, I posted it but it's hilarious.

[00:32:24] I'm off my face.

[00:32:27] But you know, but that's all part of it so you have to share it.

[00:32:29] No, that transparency is beautiful and I think I just want to reiterate my previous thought which is

[00:32:37] I think in terms of your personal growth and development in this space as an amputee

[00:32:44] in such a short amount of time you've grown so, I mean just so tremendously.

[00:32:51] I meet amputees, hue they're not where you're at and they're 10 years in to this journey.

[00:32:58] Yeah.

[00:32:58] I mean they're still kind of trying to, they're still kind of grieving the loss of a limb.

[00:33:06] They're still sort of trying to find their groove, how to interact with family,

[00:33:11] how to approach their professional life.

[00:33:14] I want to segue because I don't want to run out of time.

[00:33:18] I want to segue to your pivot.

[00:33:21] I mean what you did professionally given your circumstance.

[00:33:29] That you were able to take your skill set and apply it in the way that you have.

[00:33:37] Let's talk about, and I want to get this right, consumers with disabilities research foundation.

[00:33:45] This is remarkable to me that to look inward and say okay here's my situation now I have

[00:33:54] this awareness about not just amputees but just people with disabilities, whatever it is.

[00:34:02] How can I take my world of wisdom, knowledge, all the tools that I have in my toolbox

[00:34:11] and how can I apply those and put my grain of sand in the right place?

[00:34:17] I'm going to let you talk about it a bit more because I do want it to be part of

[00:34:21] the podcast and people to reach out to you in that regard.

[00:34:25] So go ahead.

[00:34:26] Sure.

[00:34:27] So I happened in a hospital room.

[00:34:29] I went from my trauma surgical hospital to a rehab hospital which was an extraordinary place,

[00:34:35] really very positive place.

[00:34:37] The day I arrived, a doctor came in to me, looked at my notes and he said the following.

[00:34:42] He said listen I just want you to know that in another hospital in which I work,

[00:34:47] excuse me, we recently lost a guy, DeSepsis, who was younger than you and whose infections

[00:34:55] were of a lower grade than yours.

[00:34:58] And I was like right and he said and the reason why I'm saying that

[00:35:01] is because if you're going to sit in here feeling sorry for yourself for only losing half

[00:35:06] a leg you and me ain't going to get on very well.

[00:35:09] I was like wow, I mean they didn't teach you that in medical school but I don't know

[00:35:14] he just took the measure of me, knew that I could take it and I was like got it.

[00:35:20] I'm all in.

[00:35:21] It was such an important thing to say.

[00:35:23] He left the room and then it was the first time I thought like what the hell am I going to do?

[00:35:29] I knew that the days of racing around airports and client meetings and so on would be gone

[00:35:35] probably in full if not changed dramatically.

[00:35:37] Like what the hell am I going to do?

[00:35:38] The next thing I thought was over the years which was 30 years on both sides of the Atlantic

[00:35:43] working in the advertising industry how many disabled people have I worked with?

[00:35:48] And believe it or not the answer to that question was one guy in the UK out of thousands of people

[00:35:53] that I met.

[00:35:54] So I was kind of like, you know as all I knew is the advertising industry

[00:36:01] and I started thinking what are the reasons for that and look this kind of

[00:36:05] it's one of the advertising industries one of those industries.

[00:36:08] It's a beautiful people industry and it's had its own issues with diversity

[00:36:13] in all of its forms over the years right?

[00:36:15] Sure.

[00:36:15] But disability is one that has not been been focused upon.

[00:36:20] So I kind of thought maybe it's because the talent's not there.

[00:36:24] So when I say talent, I mean videographers, photographers, graphic designers,

[00:36:29] copywriters and all of those people that work in the industry.

[00:36:31] I thought maybe it's because the talent's not there.

[00:36:34] Was the most stupid thing that I've ever thought within an hour from my hospital room

[00:36:39] on the internet I was overwhelmed by the incredible body of talent with disabilities

[00:36:45] that there is that there's out there.

[00:36:47] And I was thinking right, I'm going to apply an equal to or better than rule to the work that I see.

[00:36:53] I mean man the work wouldn't be out of place in some of the biggest advertising agencies in the world

[00:36:59] but what came through was they simply have never been employed within the industry.

[00:37:05] There was one guy I spoke to and this was again a seminal moment.

[00:37:09] He was I'm going to say visually impaired.

[00:37:12] He wasn't visually impaired.

[00:37:13] He was blind right but he was a writer, a copywriter.

[00:37:17] So I'm going to say visually impaired copywriter.

[00:37:20] And what he said to me was words are the only means I have ever had of decoding the world.

[00:37:28] In what I feel about it and what people how people describe it to me words.

[00:37:33] And I thought what age advertising agency in the world wouldn't want a visually impaired copywriter

[00:37:39] for that reason alone.

[00:37:41] And his work was really good but he had had 17 remote interviews and hadn't gotten a job.

[00:37:46] And I think it was because certain industries when they they're more they're fear of us right

[00:37:54] then change of us or failure of us.

[00:37:57] If you think you hiring a visually impaired person you're going to get it wrong

[00:38:01] and you're going to get sued under the Americans with disabilities act.

[00:38:04] Just I don't know there's some something going on.

[00:38:09] That day I just found this whole bunch of incredibly talented people with disabilities

[00:38:14] in all of its wide and varied forms.

[00:38:18] And I thought this is an hour or so after the guy had said if you're going to sit

[00:38:22] in here feeling sorry for yourself.

[00:38:23] And I thought I'm 55 at the time 53 had a good time in this you know good time in my

[00:38:32] my adult life and my career my family life and so on.

[00:38:36] I'm going to try and fix this.

[00:38:37] Yeah.

[00:38:38] And if I can create any form of legacy from that when I retire then that will feel much

[00:38:45] better than having just worked straight through.

[00:38:47] So so we actually set up two companies.

[00:38:50] The first one is an agency and it's called doable do a BLE doable because it is doable.

[00:38:59] These guys had shown me how doable it was.

[00:39:02] And doable is the first advertising and marketing agency founded by and staffed

[00:39:07] by talent with disabilities.

[00:39:09] And then the second pivot if you like was we started looking at why

[00:39:14] advertising that portrays disability is bad and it is really bad.

[00:39:19] Well the reason why it's bad is because there's no data on people with this

[00:39:24] consumers with disabilities like my wife she's you know she's in a mid 40s she's

[00:39:30] a mom middle class she gets approached all of the time to go online and do surveys

[00:39:36] and get 50 bucks in target vouchers and stuff like that disabled people and never asked

[00:39:41] what they like don't like need don't need never because there isn't a research

[00:39:45] business in the United States of America focused on get this 61 million working age

[00:39:52] adults with disabilities who have 480 billion dollars of disposable income to spend.

[00:39:58] Yep.

[00:39:59] Right it's just it's insane literally makers believe I mean the advertising industry

[00:40:04] doesn't ignore four dollars 80 that alone four hundred and eighty billion dollars.

[00:40:08] So we then felt I felt that for doable as a creative agency to be successful we had

[00:40:19] to create a research arm of what we were doing and what we determined was that

[00:40:26] doable the agency would be a for profit business but the consumers with

[00:40:30] disabilities research foundation would in part be a foundation a nonprofit

[00:40:34] foundation such that we could you know if we approach 3000 adults with disabilities to talk

[00:40:42] about rail travel for instance we can give them 100 bucks of rail vouchers sadly those

[00:40:48] with disabilities are more often than not in a in a lower end of the socioeconomic scale

[00:40:53] and earnings brackets and so on correct so you know respectfully I'll go and spend the target

[00:40:59] vouchers why is it my wife that gets that right why is it people like us that get that so we wanted

[00:41:05] to create a something that could work in a non-profit way and provide tangible supplementary

[00:41:11] income to people with disabilities yeah it's the creative agency and the research business.

[00:41:17] It's an awesome endeavor it's something that until I really did some research on your

[00:41:24] particular journey I had not really considered that that we have the numbers I mean we are a

[00:41:32] powerful group of people when you start to talk about consumerism and you know there's there's

[00:41:40] so much stigma attached to us as a you know you kind of put us all in this one in this hopper

[00:41:49] together but to develop research to develop you know those particular touch points and say

[00:41:58] hey the research just hasn't been done on these groups and they're a valuable part of how this

[00:42:05] economy runs and how can we not only serve them but allow essentially when all of that is

[00:42:15] synergizing right good things happen. Yeah the most important piece of data that I think that we

[00:42:22] uncovered is that when you and I were at school right in this late 70s early 80s it less than

[00:42:30] it was 0.1% of the students with at universities had disabilities yeah by the 90s it was 1%

[00:42:38] of the head count at universities having disabilities today in North America it's 16,

[00:42:44] 16% of those young adults coming through academia live with a disability so what we're saying is

[00:42:53] you better watch out because these people are opinionated well educated likely

[00:43:01] economic financially more in a stronger position and they will not tolerate the way disabled people

[00:43:08] have been treated for the last 50 years right and I think that I think people should be excited

[00:43:16] about that because this is huge body's mobilization of of disabled people who are going to appraise

[00:43:22] the world in a different way and you used to what you said put in a corner that that will

[00:43:27] that's gone so I actually think it's an exciting time to be disabled in the sense that there are so

[00:43:34] many great people around you who will not leave you isolated and will pull up a chair for you

[00:43:41] and I think that goes career-wise academically and and so on and again do I wish I had two

[00:43:49] legs yes I do of course am I proud and honored to be part of this community every single day

[00:43:55] and for every time when I was sick when I was in recovery I asked myself why me why is this

[00:44:01] happening to me every day now something will happen that makes me say this is why this is why

[00:44:09] yeah and it's uh it's such a great exercise in gratitude and grace and you seem to really

[00:44:16] you know resonate a you know what most of the community needs I mean we are underserved

[00:44:22] we are starving at least from where I'm sitting through my lens and all the interactions that I

[00:44:29] have with people like yourself we are starving to be relevant we are starving to be regarded

[00:44:36] and once we can show the world and I feel like even in our little small way today

[00:44:44] we're we're normalizing this situation and we're trying to get that out there that hey

[00:44:51] we are among you okay you may only notice us in the summertime when we have shorts on

[00:44:57] but we we are among you and yeah it's so very often now in in my professional life

[00:45:07] because I'm you know moving into my seventh year and you know I I pride myself on

[00:45:15] um being a physical guy and you know I really really take care of myself and um very rarely

[00:45:27] you know do I ever feel like I'm struggling as an amputee anymore

[00:45:32] I can live my life as normally as I once did it certainly looks a little different

[00:45:37] and there's some procedural things the way we get dressed in the morning the way we drive

[00:45:42] you know all of those little logistical things certainly have changed and I've adapted

[00:45:47] but so so often in my professional space people will remark and say I had no idea

[00:45:58] that you had lost a limb I just so what your what your out explaining here there is an

[00:46:04] understanding that in advertising disabled people are represented by one of two archetypes only

[00:46:13] superhuman and subhuman superhuman well this is close to us because he's always a six foot four

[00:46:19] incredibly handsome javelin throwing paralympian right with a really cool running blade with a

[00:46:26] really cool running blade right and then and that's not what it's like and then over here

[00:46:31] you've got you've got a teenage child in a in a wheelchair with essentially with the begging

[00:46:37] bowl out appealing for funds and money for a hospital or or or whatever superhuman subhuman

[00:46:43] with nothing in between yep but that's where our life is our life is everything in between

[00:46:49] yes yet you never see that portrayed accurately um you know in advertising it's only one of

[00:46:55] the two of the two things and I'd urge anybody who I said this to my wife yesterday you know if I

[00:47:01] could say one thing to the community of non amputee people because I as as it happens with you I

[00:47:09] can't believe I can't believe that happened to you I can't believe your class is disabled and so

[00:47:14] on well the reason why you can't believe it is because of the good job that people like you

[00:47:18] and me do with ourselves to make sure we're okay but I would urge anyone who meets an amputee to

[00:47:25] understand that that person has been through a horrific set of circumstances and if they're

[00:47:31] standing having a laugh with you on the street then that's all power to them um you know and it

[00:47:36] is you're right like getting dressed in the morning we were in an airbnb in new york

[00:47:42] three weekends ago and I foolishly didn't look into the bathroom situation and I was

[00:47:48] having to crawl from the bed to the bathroom at night literally crawl on my hands and

[00:47:54] knees I've been able to figure out really creative ways to use like various ottomans and chairs and

[00:48:01] things to like to like get around a hotel room I'm like uh how am I going to get to the

[00:48:06] bathroom I'm not really sure just with the mission impossible music running around your head

[00:48:12] and then and then I'll I remember earlier in my amputee life I was I somehow got into a bathtub

[00:48:22] I'm telling you Hugh I could not for the life of me figure out how to get out of this bathtub

[00:48:27] I was like I don't I don't know I'm gonna hurt myself today I think something bad's gonna happen

[00:48:33] I still I still wake up in the night so someone asked me this question recently

[00:48:37] and my answer is very clear do you dream in two legs I always dream in two legs right

[00:48:44] I mean this is probably just three weeks ago I woke up in the night needed to go to the bathroom

[00:48:49] jumped up I had forgotten that I only had one leg and my wife said that she saw my

[00:48:54] stump one still away like falling like a fells tree I said it wasn't so heartbreaking

[00:49:02] it'd be hilarious you know no that's so that's so true um you know I've been really

[00:49:09] fascinated with how my dreams have evolved over the years because when I first became an amputee

[00:49:16] I was always um two-legged always yeah and what has happened I would say over the last few years

[00:49:24] I very often am wearing my prosthesis in my dreams now yeah and there are also really

[00:49:32] bizarre dreams where I am not wearing my prosthesis I have I have my one leg but I am doing amazing

[00:49:42] physical things I am running with one leg it's it's it's crazy Hugh yeah it's I don't know what

[00:49:52] has happened in my my wiring upstairs yeah where my brain has suddenly said this is who you are

[00:50:00] and you will thrive in this space and it's I I no longer sort of even in my subconscious I guess

[00:50:08] I no longer even view it as like a limitation I see it as one of my superpowers now no

[00:50:15] absolutely yeah yeah it's it's it's a little bizarre but hey what what are you gonna do

[00:50:21] but um yeah like I say that it's hearing you telling stories that's why I love this podcast

[00:50:28] because you know I'm I can drink in as much amputee content as there is out there

[00:50:33] because I find it really validating yeah you know yeah for sure tell me about your uh

[00:50:39] I'm noticing your shirt tell me about your shirt it's come true story it says amputee punk

[00:50:47] so one day once I had my prosthetic fitted and I was driving again we had the disabled

[00:50:53] badge for the car I went to drove to CVS and I don't use the disabled spots because I'm I'm good

[00:51:00] right yeah only if I have only if I have two of my prosthetics killing me which it does

[00:51:05] as you know it does often yep will I use a disabled spot this one particular day I chose

[00:51:09] not to use a disabled spot and this kid must have been 25 26 came flying in in some ridiculous

[00:51:17] suit up car pulled into the disabled spot now I take exception to that yeah so uh I kind of steps

[00:51:26] out the car the car door was open and I yelled hey dude what are you doing that's a disabled spot

[00:51:32] expecting him to say oh sorry man I'll move the car no he wanted to have an argument about it

[00:51:37] yeah well I'm in a hurry and it's none of your business so I'll actually take a look down here

[00:51:41] it's absolutely some of my business and I'm not using the parking spot so anyway it got kind of

[00:51:47] across the parking lot it got kind of quite heated yeah so he walked into this door I closed

[00:51:52] my car door and when I walked through into CVS the girl that was the greeter who I knew

[00:52:00] said to me hey hey did you hear what he said about you when he walked in I could see he

[00:52:05] was still kind of talking under his breath and I I said no I did not he said uh as you walked

[00:52:11] through the door he said f you you effing one-legged punk he won like a punk one-legged punk and

[00:52:21] that I laugh I laugh just so I'm so surprised he's laughing and I was like uh I said like

[00:52:26] it's annoying but I was like no I said but I'll tell you what it has done it's just given me a

[00:52:31] great idea for a t-shirt yeah I wear a large by the way and I'll be I'll be sending you my address

[00:52:45] or you can maybe this is a bit more you emo amputee

[00:52:51] or maybe this one amputee cowboy that one goes down pretty well here oh damn okay

[00:52:58] and then uh there's a hip hop out anyway I I just gotta be carried away is this gonna be like the side hustle

[00:53:05] that you and I are going to get involved with together because I've got some ideas as well

[00:53:09] honestly I'm sparing you a whole pile I've got this amputee uh I've got hippie amputee

[00:53:15] I've got the hook so my wife has kept saying look at the very least put them on something like red

[00:53:20] bubble because you know and then if people are interested then you can think about it there's no

[00:53:25] there's no cool clothing for amputees there's no funny clothing yeah that's uh that's something

[00:53:31] that we we should probably talk about I mean the group as you say we laugh about ourselves right

[00:53:36] yeah the groups go crazy over that stuff so your wife's right I will back her up on that

[00:53:41] particular idea and not that you necessarily need a side hustle but to get that out there and

[00:53:48] for people to be able to approach it in a lighthearted way um I'm usually the first person

[00:53:55] to make a joke I am the first person to break the ice when it comes to what's going on with me

[00:54:01] I find that you know there's different groups of people some are very engaged by it

[00:54:07] and they they find it you know funny and interesting and that usually leads to some relevant questions

[00:54:14] but there's still there still seems to be um a lot of folks out there that see it as uh I don't want

[00:54:21] to talk about that with you no oh it's incredible yeah that's really hard for me to engage with you

[00:54:28] or they see if you've just been on vacation people will always ask you about your vacation

[00:54:34] you can lose a leg and see that same group of people and they won't ask you about it right

[00:54:41] it's a mystery to me well obviously it has a lot more to do with them than us um yeah but I

[00:54:47] I feel again through your efforts through the efforts of this program we are trying to get

[00:54:54] things normalized uh amputees certainly are different but we aren't different enough

[00:55:01] that we're not relatable we're not engaging conversational all of these things are important

[00:55:07] and I find and and I find comfort especially when I do break that ice and then just the

[00:55:14] the landslide occurs of questions because I was out to dinner the other night with some people and

[00:55:20] uh I could tell that they were sort of waiting for that moment because we had had

[00:55:27] kind of a long evening together and we got to sort of the end of the evening and I don't know how the

[00:55:33] the subject of my amputation came up but once it did it was like oh my gosh it was rapid fire

[00:55:42] yeah yeah once the barriers but we are living proof of the fact that the disabled minority

[00:55:49] is the only minority you can join tomorrow you've joined overnight and we don't know

[00:55:56] yeah and I've always found it staggering that people don't think about that more

[00:56:01] instead to kind of exclude disabled people from stuff it could be you my business partner has been

[00:56:07] congenitally deaf since birth yeah I read that it's an interesting pair in the fact that he's

[00:56:12] been disabled all of his life and I've been disabled for two years so you kind of you see

[00:56:18] the different lenses that you that the world is viewed is viewed through and so I know what it

[00:56:23] was like for the majority of my life to non should not be disabled yeah and now I'm learning all about

[00:56:29] the other side of things well Hugh I appreciate that sentiment and I think that's a great way to wrap

[00:56:34] things up I want to thank you for being here your journey is fascinating and extraordinary I cannot

[00:56:40] wait for people to listen to this episode and see you know how far someone like yourself has come

[00:56:48] in just two years it's incredibly inspiring and so so important to folks out there that might feel stuck

[00:56:57] or not knowing what the next step is and I know you're you're making yourself available through

[00:57:05] you know your organization and the foundation and please uh you know check out Hugh check out

[00:57:14] I want to make sure I get this right again so my email address is simple it's Hugh at doableagency.com

[00:57:21] so doableagency. Hugh at doableagency.com and please look up the consumers with disability

[00:57:30] research foundation they're doing some amazing things as well I want to say thanks again

[00:57:36] to Hugh the one-legged punk Boyle thanks for being here thank you and you

[00:57:44] you keep up this great work that you're doing I am gonna I wasn't joking when I said I'm gonna get my

[00:57:51] hands on one of those t-shirts what did you say medium or large I am a large okay got it

[00:57:59] I am Rick Bonkowski this is the Amped Up 211 podcast that's gonna wrap it up for us thanks

[00:58:03] again to Hugh Boyle I want to wish everyone health and happiness and we'll see you next time